In this episode of the AW360 podcast, we’re joined by Matt Owens, Chief Design and Innovation Officer at Athletics, a boutique brand innovation studio based in NYC. Matt shares how Athletics helps brands navigate a rapidly evolving creative landscape—from building “living” brand systems to embracing AI not as a crutch, but as a creative co-pilot.
We dig into:
- Why boutique agencies are thriving in enterprise-level work
- How AI is being used (and misused) in brand design workflows
- What it really means to create a living brand system
- Why mindset—more than tools—is the key to real-time brand building
- The tension between individuality, enterprise needs, and creative integrity
- What the future holds for design systems, AR, modularity, and creative governance
It’s a conversation about rolling up your sleeves, rejecting rigid rules, and leaning into what Matt calls “rebel optimism.”
Learn more at athleticsnyc.com
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Transcript (Download)
Matt Owens, thanks for being on the AW360 podcast today. I’m so pleased to have you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Appreciate the time.
So you’re chief design and innovation officer at Athletics. Tell us a bit about Athletics and your role there. Athletics is a brand innovation studio in New York. We’ve been around in some form or fashion for almost two decades. We’re about somewhere in that 30 to 40 person territory. And I’d like to, you know, I like to consider us sort of boutique enterprise, you know, small enough to do big things, big enough to do small things, but always doing it at kind of that enterprise level. So that’s what we try to achieve.
So the boutique agency model is alive and well. You’re proof of that. You’ve been around for a couple of decades now. What are some of the advantages for brands when working with a boutique agency? Well, the fact that we have, you know, our senior leaders, Malcolm Buick and Lizette Wolf-Holland for many years before he came to us, you know, roughly 12, 14 years ago. I’d like to think that because we’re so small and because we have, you know, leaders at the top that actually like each other and enjoy doing the work is that we’re a little bit more close in and that the distance between, say, a CMO, an ECD and your team here is just, it’s very narrow, right? It’s very small. And because we work with, you know, large brands with really amazing internal teams, I think you just end up having to go toe to toe. And when you have a long, like a larger, bigger, you know, agency that might have their own sort of, you know, rigid processes or huge teams, this is a lax, maybe that flexibility and that on the ground agility, you know, getting in there and making it. I mean, we come from a culture of makers, first and foremost. So I think that maybe separates us is that enterprise rigor, enterprise thinking, but, you know, willing to roll up our sleeves.
Full transparency. I pretty much ask this of everybody right now just because it’s such a hot topic. When it comes to AI, though, and agencies, I’m particularly interested in how each is using it, particularly, you know, on the creative side, strategy side, things like that. How are you at Athletics working with AI to then work with brands? Well, AI is, I’d say like, you know, if you look back in like January 2023, when, you know, for Mid Journey became really popular, I would say to now we have a normalization of AI sort of within project management and ideation, right? So like GPD4 is out there, Gemini. I feel like all of those things are working for brands and businesses and allowing us to augment ideation, project management, all those good things. I think the thing that has yet to really get cracked is at this large enterprise level, you know, you have teams that need to do day-to-day work and AI tools aren’t really at the level of maturity to be able to institutionalize them, right? And so as an agency, what we’re trying to do is use them as much as possible. Like we have a great relationship with Adobe Firefly. We’re actively using these tools and then we’re trying to understand how to fit them into the workflow sort of preemptively instead of reactively. And so I think that just comes from like the maker experimenter mindset, you know? It’s like none of these, you know, whether it’s Runway or whether it’s Stable Diffusion or whatever it is, if you’re not actively sort of interrogating them, you can’t educate your clients as to sort of the good, bad in between of them. And I still think we’re a ways off, you know, even Figma AI is still in beta. So like what it means is like the normalization of sort of a GPT-4 or a Gemini, great, let’s keep doing that. How this comes into like brand systems work is still kind of in its infancy, I think to a degree.
And when it comes to those brand systems, you know, everybody has to kind of be everywhere right now when it comes to all brands. Does AI assist you in any way on that side of things, maybe taking a piece of creative and putting it in 14 different places? Is that accelerating that process or making it any easier? Or is it just very so much between clients? I mean, the novelty of it just allows the ideation phase and like the experimentation phase to be so much fun. So, you know, we’ll be in there doing something and getting into Runway and making things move. We’ll be experimenting at GPT-4 and sort of figuring, you know, sort of entertaining ourselves and exploring at the same time. So I think it’s really energized the sort of brand to live process. I think once you get into brand finalization and brand rigor, that’s a different animal entirely. And, you know, I’ve read it, I’ve written about it many, many times, which is, you know, there’s no suchthing as like the rag for a brand identity, right? There’s no retrieval of brand rules, examples, history, and the generation of those into new outputs just yet. And so when the rag for brand identity gets invented, whoever that might be, or I would say examples history and the generation of those into new outputs just yet. that we’re a few years out for it to become this amazing thing that everyone understands, you’re still in this kind of like AI novelty experimentation mode. And then getting it into the systems to say, even Figma AI is amazing, but it’s just sort of a starter pack, if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. The idea of a living brand system, I think is what you said earlier, is incredibly interesting to me. Can you explain both what that means and how is it a benefit to brands?
Well, a living brand system is the holistic look at the brand from everything from button to billboard and the whole consumer and customer experience. And for us that touches not just traditional brand identity, like colors, fonts, logos, all those kinds of things, but it’s sound, it’s motion, it’s behavior. And what we’re seeing is that when we, because we’re small and we do all of these things in a kind of a holistic way, some big, big companies love it and are already kind of seeing everything from product development to marketing to brand development. They’re seeing it all as very, very interrelated. And then there’s larger companies that have been around for a long time that are maybe still a little bit behind.
And so what we try to do as an agency is sort of come to the table, seeing everything as interrelated and using that as just an exciting way to educate our clients or work alongside them so that when we’re doing something, we’re not so siloed. So I think it’s the savvy of the clients you’re working for. I would say the larger technology companies we work for are amazing because sometimes they’re even ahead of us. And then you have larger companies that maybe are still struggling with adopting AI or still stuck in sort of like terrible PowerPoint world and are still struggling to break free.
Yeah, unfortunately AI hasn’t really solved the boring PowerPoint problem very well, at least as far as I’ve seen. It’s a pretty fast moving world to say the least, but particularly on social platforms where everything is kind of instantaneous. And I always look back at that Oreo cookie tweet as that moment where all of a sudden this expectation of real time messaging and reaction suddenly became the norm and the standard. And the thing that everybody, for better or for worse, tries to achieve.
How do you at Athletics adapt and refine brand strategies in real time or near real time?
I mean, for us, it’s really about keeping our teams. I mean, strangely, it’s less about the tools and more about the mindset, to be honest. It’s like if you can keep your teams really small and senior and you can keep the ideation with the client really compact, I think that actually allows you to operate in real time more quickly. I think there’s a little bit of an addiction to technology. Hey, we’re going to adopt this thing and it’s going to make everything go faster. Actually, I think it’s the mindset shift is the biggest part of it for us.
And I like to, you know, I was talking to one of our senior strategists. It’s like IRL is so hot right now. And it’s like because of the remote work thing, we were all Zoom call, Zoom call, Zoom call. And now we’re like, hey, let’s stop. Let’s do a one day work session in real life. Let’s build that cultural bond. Let’s build that intellectual bond with the team that we’ve never met before. Let’s go deep and build that trust early. And that actually allows us to work more quickly once we start to figure out what tools they’re using, you know, and all those good things. So I don’t know if that answers your question, but I actually don’t believe it’s a technology problem. I think it’s actually a mindset problem.
No, I love that. I think that you’re absolutely right. When it comes to that trust part of it, though, I mean, that’s something that, you know, obviously trust in building trust with different brands probably varies in how long that takes, depending upon the brand’s history and, you know, other various factors.
Do you find that utilizing technology and having, you know, a certain amount of mastery of it and being ahead of the game wherever you can, does that help you build that trust faster or is it also not necessarily technology related?
Like the way I kind of see it is that you have to meet every client at their level of brand maturity, right, internally. And so if the team is at a certain kind of maturity where they’re like, hey, we do all this already. We’re all in Figma working collaboratively. Everything’s great. Then you can meet that internal client team at that level of brand maturity and operate in that kind of fast, agile,you know, great way. But then there’s, you know, there’s other instances where maybe that mature, maybe there used to be a startup and they’re a grow-up brand and they have those tools, but they’re still a little, you know, maybe not as refined in their methodologies. And so it’s our responsibility as an agency to sort of, you know, meet them where they are and then get really, really clear on where we want to be, you know?
And so I think that’s, it’s all about that level of brand maturity and diagnosing that early and saying like, okay, this is where they’re at. This is their strength. This is the weakness. This is maybe something we’re missing. And then once you figure that out and that’s very clear, that helps you build the trust because I think the lack of trust is when there’s these disconnects, right? And you’re like, oh, well, I thought you guys did it this way. Actually, we only do it that way. Or actually our teams aren’t even integrated. And so it’s asking those right questions so you can have that fit early on.
It feels like the more clients that you bring on and the more you learn about them and discover these places where maybe you’re missing elements along the way, you’re almost kind of creating like a snowball effect of knowledge and skill. How much further do you think that goes? I mean, obviously nobody can tell the future, but I’m really into asking people, you know, what they see down the road. And so, you know, on the future-proofing side, what are you doing? Or maybe also what have you seen right over the horizon that you’re most excited about?
I feel like it’s the move from like template thinking and systems thinking to sort of like modularity as a mindset and principles over rules. So looking at almost, you know, it’s almost like brand systems is an extension of the brand values, which is like, does this feel like something we would be doing? Not so much like, is this rule being adhered to or broken or not? It’s more a little holistic and a little bit larger.
And what that allows you to do is sort of like, it’s not, I think there has been in the past when it comes to sort of brand governance in general, there’s just a worry that things get fractured so easily, so quickly, right? Different teams at different levels, different altitudes of skill, all of those kinds of things. And so I think moving away from like, hey, this is a bilateral, this is working, this is not, this is broken, adhering to rules, this is not, to more like let’s set up the environment for success.
Let’s set up modular tools that allow you to succeed within a pre-defined sandbox, right? Like we built a tool called Sesame that was born out of stuff that we did with Square for their motion principles. It wasn’t about, those tools aren’t about like confining, they’re about giving you the ecosystem to be creative, right? And there’s some rules and governance and some territories that you have to kind of operate within, but within that, you’re free to do a lot of different things.
And I think that’s just a little bit of a mind shift. And as we get into like more digitally enabled sort of future-proofing, like, hey, we’re all on, you know, we go all in on Funnify or like we have our rigorous Figma libraries, this kind of rigorousness is not about like confinement, it’s about giving people a sort of the shared sandbox to really be creative in, if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. Principles over rules to me is either a really great T-shirt or the name of your book, you know, either one, maybe both, maybe both. That’s a great way of putting it though. You know, when you look at technologies that have kind of come up, you know, some of them succeed, some of them don’t, some of them get a little too much more hype than maybe they should have.
I always point at 5G as being this thing that was kind of, you know, it’s going to enable every, you know, it’s going to cure cancer. It’s like, well, half the time it doesn’t work if you’re in Manhattan, but, you know, there’s Web3, there’s AI, there’s the metaverse. Which of these things did you really look at or are you still looking at as, you know, maybe it’s time just wasn’t here quite yet, if any?
I mean, I feel like just augmented reality things in general are still really hard to adopt. And I always, you know, it’s sort of like the, I love the Blackberry movie where it’s like, it’s a pager, it’s a phone, it’s email, right? It’s things you understand. It’s like when you put knowledge into a pair of like sunglasses, it becomes like, well, what am I doing, right? It’s the gap to understanding and mass adoption becomes farther and harder to bridge.
And so I think those are really the tricky spots. You know, I think inevitably, I mean, I think actually being able touse GPT-4 on an app and talk to it on your phone is actually a really simple example of where I think things are headed, right? It’s like using voice to sense make, which we all do normally, and then having that become artifacturalized. into templates, whatever designs. And so I think it’s less about creating another device, so to speak, and it’s more about doubling down on natural behaviors and getting those behaviors that we naturally do, speaking, ideating, discussing, and getting those to work for us into kind of communication artifacts and shortening that distance. I think that’s really where the future is.
Yeah, I’m not sure Apple would love that answer, but I do. I don’t need another device. I have enough of their stuff. I just need all the stuff to work better.
Exactly, exactly. You know, given the disparity in agreement in the country and the world right now, how are you finding working with brands with all of that going on? Not picking a side or anything of that sort, but just in general. I mean, are brands more cautious, less cautious, or, you know, business as usual?
I would say businesses, the vocabulary of enterprise businesses, they’re obviously concerned about like all the machinations of like the global economy, of course. I think individually when you go inside of those businesses and you look at creatives within them, I think everyone within the creative world is like super energized about all the possibilities and we know the world’s going to be very different in five years, whether that’s electricity and electric cars or whether the normalization of certain AI behaviors.
I think sociopolitically, there’s a concern because I think what we all want is we all want to do great work that adheres to our own values as individuals, right? And I think there’s a sensitivity in this day and age on, hey, you know, what big brands and big businesses need to accomplish economically and what we believe individually are often coming into conflict or there’s a nuance there, right?
And so I would say I’m always a huge advocate for the creative enterprise and for the individual because that individuality is what makes working at companies amazing, right? And then being able to embrace the individuality of others, it’s the, you know, the age old, you know, one plus one equals four, right? It’s like embrace the strengths of the people around you and to work together is what makes businesses amazing.
And so there is going to be a delta and there continues to be a delta. And as a business owner, I’m hypersensitive of that, you know? It’s like I’m everyone’s biggest fan internally and externally. And I think we’re all going to need to really double down through the work and through being really thoughtful to each other and thoughtful to the business needs to like make the right decisions.
And I think it’s become more complex, clearly. And some of the things that we’re struggling with, you know, the episodic nature of work, the fact that, you know, a lot of leaders, you know, they don’t stick around more than three years. So you’re always kind of chasing the other next opportunity.
I think the way you deal with that is you do great work and you’re an advocate for the best in everyone. You know, that’s all you can really hope for. And I think picking sides, you know, personally, I think you pick your battles and you try to have a nuanced and thoughtful and deep discussion with leadership and with your team when those things come up, right?
I think transparency is the answer. Honesty is the answer. And coming to the table saying, we might not agree in this, whatever that might be, but our goal is to get to a consensus to do great work and to be proud of what we’re doing. And that should be the lens with which we kind of operate.
And if one wanted to find out more about athletics or yourself, where should they go? Go to athleticsnyc.com. I would say, you know, the thing that we do well and that we really enjoy is we have a lot of rebel optimism for all the things we do. You know, I think everyone in this world, it’s like we’re in a world of a lot of uncertainty. And I personally think that this time of uncertainty makes it really exciting. And that if you have kind of a really optimistic mindset and you’re willing to roll up your sleeves and get it done, I think that it’s the answer always. It doesn’t matter if it’s 1993 or 2025, the answer is in the making. And I think that’s really where the sweet spot is.
Well, Matt Owens, thanks so much for taking the time to be on the show today. This was fantastic.
Hey, I appreciate it. And, you know, appreciate the time. And, you know, check out Athletics NYC. And I think having some rebel optimism is going to always champion, you know, whatever comes our way.Rebel optimism, also another great T-shirt or bumper sticker or perhaps book title.
