Join Katie as she talks with Wharton Business School professor, author of the best-seller “Bring Yourself” and negotiation expert, Mori Taheripour on how to negotiate fearlessly, finding greater meaning in life and work, and living authentically.
Listen to all episodes on your favorite podcast platform:
Transcript (Download)
Hi, I’m Katie Kempner, and welcome to Perspectives, which is a series of inspiring conversations with remarkable working women. And today, my guest is Mori Tahirapour, globally recognized speaker, Wharton Business School professor, author, and negotiation expert. Mori, welcome. Thank you so much. So excited to be here. So there’s so much I want to talk with you about. But I think maybe a good way to start is just could we just learn a little bit about your career path? Yeah, definitely. Probably the best way to describe it is like a maze. There’s like no straight path to where I am today. I started my career in public health. Um, and then went into sort of the merging of public health and business. I guess I started my company, um, before I went to business school. Um, and we did a lot of sort of social marketing, um, big sort of, uh, massive private health prevention, education type, um, messaging, uh, for target populations that worked in a lot of communicable diseases. and decided to go to business school at that point, because, you know, most entrepreneurs are like, I’m really kind of tired of learning everything from mistakes that I’m making. So trial and error is exhausting as an entrepreneur. So Let me go to business school. And once there, I think everything changed. I should go back a little bit and say sports is sort of my first love. I’d always wanted to work in sports and sort of had tangentially done some work. But once I went to business school, I sort of was really focused on wanting to find a either a career in sports or do more work in sports. Wasn’t quite sure what was gonna happen after the fact and sort of all things changed. I grew a lot, I think just being around really exceptionally smart people and being exposed to so many different things while you’re in school. I sort of didn’t want to go back to life as it was, but didn’t know what the next chapter was going to be. And so while I was trying to make a decision, my very last semester at Wharton, my negotiations professor at the time said, you know, while you’re trying to figure this out, I know you want to do more work in sports. So here’s one opportunity. We’re about to launch this sort of think tank at Wharton as it regards sports business. So we’d love for you to be a co-founder if you’re interested. But I really think you should think about teaching as well. Never thought about it. Bought it. Actually, I was like, this man is insane. And because I’m an introvert, public speaking was definitely not my thing. But that was almost 22 years ago, a little over 21 years ago. And that’s how the teaching career started. And negotiation specifically, he had been my professor. He’s like, if this is of interest to you. And I loved it. He said, let’s start, let’s start with this if you want to do it. And since I was trying to sort of figure things out anyway, it was kind of a good time to start something new, something maybe that scared me actually. And that’s, that’s where it all, this sort of negotiations and teaching all began. Well, let’s talk about this because your webpage starts with the headline. Are you looking for greater meaning in life and work? And I think, For many people, the answer to that is a resounding yes. So how do we achieve this? And how does negotiation, something that so many people dread, and I’m going to put myself in that category, play such a pivotal role? So I think that you’re right. I mean, so many people fear or have anxiety around negotiations and oftentimes as a result, try to avoid it to the extent possible. Now, I believe that we negotiate every single day. Everything that we do is really a negotiation. And so once you start thinking in that way, perhaps that lessens the anxiety because you really do know that you are quite experienced in negotiations from every conversation with family members. If you have kids and friends and yourself, all the decisions that you make. So that’s that’s the first thing. Second thing is that I really do believe that given those conversations, a lot of the times where we’re trying to find the best path forward and whether that’s making career decisions, maybe that’s setting boundaries with people that we care about or we work with. I think that those are opportunities for us to actually express ourselves and to use our voice, speak to things that are most important to us, our values, things that we want to fight for, things that are really so personal to us. And so if you have a hard time having those conversations, then it’s really impossible to, to, to really create those things, whether it’s boundaries, whether it’s, it’s just expressing your opinions about something, whether it’s fighting for things that are so important to you, your values and otherwise. So I think that that’s why negotiations play such a big role in defining your happiness or finding a more fulfilling life. It’s just saying, respect yourself, stand in your power, speak your truth. And that’s, and hopefully those two things co-mingled with, yes, I am an experienced negotiator because I do this all the time. And no, I should not, deny myself the opportunity to find purpose and fulfillment. It’s so interesting because I’ve always thought about how many decisions you make in life and how every single day, and some of them are so important and some of them don’t feel important, but then it turns out they are important. But really to take it a step further, you’re making all these decisions and you’re also having all these negotiations, even when you don’t realize that you’re having them. So what are some of your top negotiating strategies and tips that everyone who’s listening can immediately start using? I think the first piece of advice that I can give is that you can’t be a great negotiator if you don’t know how to advocate for yourself and really sort of giving yourself permission to do so, because a lot of people think that, you know, I don’t want to be greedy or I don’t want to look like you know, I’m in it for just, just for me, especially people who I call pleasers who are very much service oriented or want to make people around them really happy. We always think that those two things have to be sort of really separate. If I make myself happy, thus other people are going to be unhappy. And I think those things are actually mutually inclusive. One can feed the other. And so first and foremost is really understanding who you are and understanding your values so you can actually be a better advocate for yourself. The second is that you have to understand your own value. And and again, a lot of these things are really linked. But at the end of all this, you understand that I’m a big proponent of negotiations is really about your mindset and successful negotiations are driven by your mindset. So I personalize preparation. I personalize what you have to think about before you negotiate. So a lot of times when people, for example, think about preparation, they think, what is the other person going to want? What are they going to ask for? And my question is, OK, but before you get there in preparation, what do you want? What are you going to ask for? What are you going to stand for? What are your non-negotiables? So really that that that self-reflection, first and foremost, but also creating that space for yourself where you. can stand up for things that are important to you and being able to communicate those things, right? In a way that is understandable, in a way that’s effective and objective. So for example, whatever you set as your goals, and I always say, dream big, ask for more, right? Why not, right? The biggest limit you have in negotiations is that which you place on yourself. So go big or go home kind of thing, but do it with data, for example, back it up with information so that it’s not only substantial and aspirational, but it’s also objective and persuasive. So really, I mean, those are sort of the top things is do the self-reflection, understand your value, know how to communicate it using the tools that you have, including first and foremost data. And and after that, I think like once you move away from yourself and do the same thing for the other person, who are they? What are they going to want? If you know something about their reputation, you know, doing all of the things that allow you to have some sense of understanding of the other person. So when you see them and you bring in that level of curiosity that you’re you’re going even further in terms of learning about them. So really personalizing it, you know, negotiations is a human act. It’s about two humans, three humans. It’s not transactional. So everything that I think about in terms of preparation really has to do with understanding humanity better, including yourself. So what if, if we talk about it in a work sense, what if I’m super nervous because I want to ask for a raise? I think I deserve a raise. And I go in… And I think women, this is a gross generalization, but I do think women often don’t advocate for themselves in the same way that men do, or many women, I should say. So I go in and I have a number in mind of what I think I want, and it’s maybe a lot more than I’m making right now, or I’m very unclear if I’m going to get that. How would I broach it? So first, again, you have to be able to communicate your value, right? Unfortunately, we don’t necessarily get in negotiations what we quote unquote deserve. We get what we negotiate for. And in that sense, really sort of mapping this out. First, having that conversation with yourself about, sure, I deserve this. Yes, I’m worthy of this. And then with that, these are all the things that I’ve done that put me in this position where where I feel like I should be getting more money. And whether it’s I’m doing the job of two or three people, which happened a lot during the pandemic, people got laid off and then one person was doing the job of four. Whether I’ve gotten new contracts that I’ve brought in, whether I’m the person with 10 clients that I’m overseeing as opposed to so-and-so who’s only working with three. So all these things. Right. And really and not doing it just before you go in for the negotiations, but really doing it over the course of time. So almost journaling all these things, because funny should say, as women, I think this is a very much society driven thing. But when we talk about ourselves in a way that shows our pride, people may think that we’re arrogant. And instead of thinking that we’re just confident, well-deserved confidence, by the way. So if you keep track of these things over time, then you don’t forget. And then when the time comes to have those salary conversations, you’re like, oh my God, this is all that I’ve done. Like, this is the proof, right? So I think having those conversations from the perspective of not just what you deserve, but really what you’ve brought to the table, what value you’ve created, because then it becomes more of a universal thing as opposed to just about you. And also thinking about the person that you’re negotiating with as your advocate, and an understanding that whatever you communicate to them has to matter to them as well. Because either, you know, oftentimes you’re not negotiating with the person who’s going to ultimately make the decision. Or if they are, they’re carrying this to HR and advocating on your behalf. So being really clear about those things so that they can better communicate what you’ve communicated to them. And I think lastly, is that pick the right moments, you know, use your emotional intelligence that we have going for us as women. So maybe, you know, one telling the person if it’s your boss, hey, I’d really love to have a conversation about this on Thursday, let’s say. and giving them that advance notice. But when it is time to do it, if you walk in the office and they seem like they’ve had a horrible day, perhaps that’s not the time. Because again, you want them to be in the best position possible for them to carry the message effectively. I think all those things are important. And by the way, the good news is more women are negotiating for themselves. We’re seeing that trend really change. Yes, we are better negotiators when we negotiate on somebody else’s behalf, but we’re also negotiating for ourselves more, which is great. Just one final thing on this. So what if you’re talking with someone who just won’t budge? So I see that sometimes as a result of, I mean, first let’s say not every deal can be done, right? And there are times where you just have to walk away where it feels like there’s either not shared goals or there’s not reciprocity in the way we’re approaching this. So if you’re the only one that’s giving things up and they’re not doing anything and feel like I don’t even feel good about this, then that may just be the time that you’re walking away. But I think that that’s sort of the end stage, right? But before that, why are they not? Have you taken the time to understand what’s really important to this person? Have you taken the time to understand why those things are important? Is there a way that you can fulfill their interests by understanding those things that doesn’t minimize the goals that you have, but maybe what they’re really looking for, maybe they’re not communicating it effectively at first, but once you dig and you get a better sense of it, maybe some of those things are things that you can easily give up that aren’t as important to you and are far more important to them, but you haven’t really gotten a good understanding of it because you haven’t had sort of further discussion. So I think that you have to be patient. You have to really take time to understand somebody. You can’t just jump right into the transaction, you know, like, hi, my name is Mori, how much? Like, it’s really- The steps that come before that, we call that information exchange, but really before the transaction comes the understanding. Before the transaction comes the empathy, the curiosity. Before the transaction comes the building of the bridges. So if you do those things effectively, I would believe that it’s less likely that somebody um you won’t be able to get to a place where both of you can drive some amount of happiness um or fulfillment from this negotiations or or find ways to compromise there’s a big there’s just a big runway to the time where you just say this isn’t gonna work right um So I would say really have an understanding. And if at the end of the day, it doesn’t, it’s because you really understand why. And you understand that what they wanted was just things that you couldn’t really give up or vice versa. So your book, Bring Yourself, it really delves into how people can live their authentic lives and reimagine what’s possible for themselves. This is a time in the world where many people can’t really see the exact way forward. We’re bombarded with negative and very scary news all the time. There are many leaders who seem to revel in a lack of respect for others, which is something that is a very scary turn in this country, in the world. But it also means that many people are walking around on edge, and it’s hard to focus beyond the day-to-day on what you wish your life was like. Do you agree with that? And if so, what do you think we can do about it for ourselves? Um, yes, absolutely. Yes. I think that, um, the world is really scary right now. And, and, um, I think, I mean, I can speak for myself. I’m Iranian. I was born in Iran and these are really, really scary times. um for me but this isn’t the first time i mean just the news in general is so negative that i can’t remember the last time i watched something on tv in the news and i was like oh that’s great news like i i just the the the beating up um of of people through all this information that’s throwing and being thrown at us you just have to take a break that’s first and foremost i i I have to do that for myself because there are days where you’re like, I can’t even get out of bed. Everything is so bad. That being said, I think there’s it’s really easy to understand where people are like, I just disengage. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But at the end of the day, if everybody disengaged, then how do we create change? If you don’t like the world that you live in, how do you then bring about change? And that’s through advocacy. That’s through coalition building. That’s through people speaking up. And so you can’t really. So you can take breaks, but you should never just fully disengage because then you also feel powerless, which is also really easy to feel. So as for me, I take whatever little platform that I have and try to bring impact in in those situations. And for me, that’s the classroom. And so I’m a I’m the person that says kindness doesn’t cost you anything. It’s free. Right. And so if you can treat people around you the way you want to be treated. If you can just see people and respect people and pay attention to people and be curious about them instead of judging them at first and really spending time learning about them, then I think one person at a time, this world can change. And I have to believe that I have to remain hopeful about that. I do see the change when people leave the classroom. Because sometimes I think we also need reminders because it’s really easy to become pessimistic, right? So if we don’t like the way our leaders are acting, then model a behavior that you want and you’re proud of and you want to exude and you want others to follow. And I think that’s really important. And I just don’t think that we can afford to feel powerless. I don’t think that we can afford to feel like change can’t happen just because right now it feels like it’s very suffocating. Yeah, you’ve put that so eloquently. In terms of living your authentic life, what does that exactly mean to you? I think it means being present for yourself, right? If there are days that I’m… really, really exhausted mentally, emotionally, whatever it is physically, then if there’s a, an event that I’m supposed to go to, it used to be that I had a little bit of FOMO and a lot of like, I need to go. Cause I told them to, I thought I was going to be more authentic about it means that you could pick up the phone or send a text and say, listen, I I’m just not feeling that well today. I’m really, really exhausted. Love you, support you, just can’t be there. And I think that’s really important. And maybe it’s my age. I don’t know the older I get that it feels easier to do this. But I think that you have to being authentic is first recognizing where you are and what you need mentally, physically, emotionally. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is when I when I talk about showing up authentically, I don’t mean in all situations all the time for everybody. I don’t know if everybody deserves you being 100 percent of yourself. right? One, it can be really exhausting, but two, people are judgmental. Sometimes, you know, it’s really hard to just show up in all your authentic self, right? You feel maybe if you’re vulnerable, it’s really hard to be like walking around on every occasion and just starting to cry. I mean, that’s Just because that’s what you feel, it doesn’t mean that you need to show it to everybody. So I think that, again, it goes back to really understanding where you are, what you’re feeling, and deciding what kind of situations you’re in and how much of yourself you want to allow people to see. You have that control. And I don’t think that makes you disingenuous. I think that it makes you feel really powerful, very centered. Yeah, that’s an excellent point. So I wanted to ask you, you know, you’re dealing as a professor at Wharton, you’re dealing with young, highly intelligent people who are often still figuring out their lives and have, in many cases, more of an opportunity to shape them than someone, say, my age. Although you can always shape your life and live your authentic self. But I’m curious, are your students making different choices than students you had years ago on how they live? Have they changed? Yes. But society’s changed. To live in this world today is very different than to have lived in this world 20 years ago. Yeah. Even 10 years ago. I think that it’s, and I hate to say this is the only thing that has affected that change, but social media has played a very big role. Yes. And I think it changed, nevermind things like the pandemic and all the sort of geopolitical issues. I mean, they don’t live in a bubble, so they’re affected by all of these things. But I think social media specifically has really changed these students. And even all the adults, all the entrepreneurs, small business owners, I mean, we’re all affected by it, right? But at that age where you are at that moment in time where your networks and your friendships and the closeness of it all, like it was so meaningful and it can be so meaningful. And yet something like the force of social media actually, instead of bringing people together, creates a division and pulls us apart. And there’s this sort of notion of, oh, I have so many friends because I have 10,000 followers. Actually, when things are going really badly for you and you’re in a really, really depressed state, 10,000 followers aren’t going to help you. It’s the group of five, you know, four, five, 10 friends that you have that you live on the floor with in your dormitory or you’re in a sorority with or you’ve just been childhood friends this whole time. You’ve been in connection with contact with one another. those are the people. And so I think that there’s that level of sort of division, loneliness that’s occurred as a result has deeply affected them. And the second thing is that with social media, with the 24 hour news cycle, they’re also privy to a lot more things and the information they get. And unfortunately they are not, this is, these are not the days of great news. So You know, massive gun violence and, you know, all the things that have affected them. There’s like almost the pre 9-11, pre Columbine kids. And then there’s the we’re no longer kids necessarily. But then there are those that are born in this world today that know nothing else but those things. So. There’s a lot. I mean, they carry a lot. They have to see things that I wish they didn’t have to see this early in life. That’s sort of the loss of innocence way too early. But they’re great and they are open-minded. And thus my students have open minds, have open hearts, are courageous. I just wish for better days for them. Me too. And talking about social media, this is a whole other podcast because then we could also talk about the lack of authenticity on so many people’s social media and how bad that makes other people feel. But that is a whole other podcast. We’ll have to come back and do it again. Perfectionism, perfectionism. That’s the other one. You know, one of the things I did want to ask you, though, on this podcast is your definition of success, because with everything that has happened in the world and here you are, you know, at a business school that turns out many of the most successful people in the country and maybe even the world. Like, how has your definition of success changed for you and then also for what you see for other people’s success? I think my definition of success changes or has changed significantly over probably the last five years or maybe since like 20, you know, let’s say specifically, and I’ll give you a reason why, but I think We are allowed to change what success means to us because we grow and we change. We want different things and we see more of the world and things that we put a lot of emphasis on become far less important over time. And I think namely for me, you know, I’ve always been driven. I’ve always wanted the money, the success, the, you know, whatever I thought those things meant. I think ever since I lost my dad, my mom has dementia. You know, I’ve seen a lot. I’ve lost one of my best friends over the past, you know, a little over five years, about seven years now. All these things. really make you think, oh, what’s that stuff all for if you can’t share it with the people that you love? I think friendships mean different things to me now. I think my time means something different now. There was a time where I thought, oh, there’s so much time for that. And now I’m realizing, really? Maybe not, right? At any given moment, anything can happen. And so I think I’m still trying to define what success in air quotes really means, but I can tell you that my time and the time that I have to spend with people that I love and my health is included in that so that it gives me longevity to experience these things has taken far more important role in whatever the definition of success is because I realized without those things, anything else doesn’t really matter. I’m very sorry to hear about everything you’ve been going through. I lost my closest friend last year and yeah, it really does change how you look at the world and so many in, in, it’s so sad because she also left children, but on the other hand, it also kind of motivates you. I would think at least I can only speak for myself, motivates me to be better at everything, you know, a more present, a more present mother to my children, better with my husband, with my parents. And so, you know, I think it motivates you and also motivates, You have to get beyond it. When we were talking about your authentic self, you know, you if you have a lot of sadness in you, it’s very difficult as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think like to your point, being present is maybe the most important lesson is that, you know, good or bad. If you’re if you are more present in your life and you’re more grateful for your experiences. Then, I mean, that’s really living, right? Like that’s when you, it’s like living in color, right? Everything has a meaning and everything has, everything sort of leaves a mark on you. And you start appreciating things that maybe you didn’t even have time to notice or experience. And so, yeah, I think presence is everything, right? If you can learn to be more mindful and present of every moment, not just the big moments, but like even the small moments, I think is really important. So that almost could be your answer to my last question, but I’m going to still ask it. So now you have to find something else or you can still go back to that one if you want. But but just to end, I mean, you’ve had such a remarkable career up until now and so much more to come. Is there one piece of advice that has really helped you through your life and your career that you could share with us? Yeah. I think that. For a long time, I was so what I call what if person. And by that, I mean, like, you know, what if I do this, and this happens? And what if they I say this and they think that and it was so guided by sort of I externalized all these things. Right. And the answers, by the way, to those questions were always like bad. Right. I think I’m greedy. Oh, they my parents will disown me if I don’t become a doctor or, you know, all those things. So everything had every answer that what if was bad. And I think that ever since I’ve become more of a why not person, like what’s the worst that can happen? Um, I feel free. I feel, you know, like I’ve really sort of gone through this process of like doing things that don’t feel comfortable, that my entire career at this point, I am doing today something that I never, ever thought I’d be comfortable doing. And I resisted at first. So I think we regret that. opportunities that we don’t take I think as far as negotiations goes the answer is no always if you never ask and you lose out on things and whether it’s relationships and friendships and work opportunities there’s a lot to be lost when you think from the perspective of what if and there’s a whole hell of a lot to be gained if you think to yourself why not right what’s the worst that could happen Why not? Well, thank you. That seems like a perfect place to end. It was really wonderful speaking with you. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Thank you for your time. And thank you for listening.
